Mr BAYLEY – Thank you. In relation to the coloured sand matters, the first, I understand, schools were communicated about this was Friday at 10.46 a.m. when a message went out to all principals which basically said that – and I’ll read this into the record:
Please be aware that the following products have been recalled by the ACCC due to the possibility that they may contain asbestos. See the detailed recall notices attached.
It lists the different products,
Note: respirable asbestos has not been detected in any of the tested samples. The release of respirable asbestos fibres is unlikely to occur in its current state unless the sand is processed by mechanical means such as crushing or pulverising. The risk that any asbestos found is likely to be airborne or fine enough for inhalation is low.
And gave some instructions,
What you should do if you have these products. One: stop using the products immediately. Two: place the sand in a heavy-duty plastic bag and double tape it securely and keep it out of reach of children. Three: do not dispose of the product in general waste. Information on the disposable of asbestos waste, including disposal facilities, can be found on the Asbestos and Silica Safety and Eradication Agency website.
It gave some contacts at the Officeworks and organisational safety. That was on Friday at 10.46 a.m., but the first public communication about this was a media release from you yesterday, which was that the school audit was undertaken over the sand, recall. Why did it take so long to make a public comment from you as minister about this issue, which you have acknowledged while the risk is low, is an alarming situation? When anyone hears the words asbestos, alarm bells ring, and rightly so. Why did it take until yesterday at 12.14 p.m. before you actually made public statements about this and spoke more broadly to the community about this issue?
Ms PALMER – I think our focus was very much on communicating with our schools. That needed to be our primary focus. There was certainly numerous media reports nationally that were coming out in light of this. My first priority in that instance was to be communicating with my secretary and my department and to make sure we were communicating with our schools, as more information came to bear, I turned my attention to media releases coming out from me. My focus was communicating with our school leaders and our workforce and making sure that they had the information about how to manage the product. Again, that was complicated in itself, because there were varying forms of the product. Was it sealed? Wasn’t it sealed? That was absolutely where my focus was and my priority.
Mr BAYLEY – Yesterday’s relief references the incident management team. When was that actually stood up?
Ms PALMER – I will hand that question to the secretary.
Ms WEBSTER – We had an incident, but the Work Health and Safety Team stood up around this on the Friday, obviously, but from an incident management perspective, it was Monday that we stood up – a small team within the department.
Mr BAYLEY – Within the department? Why did you wait until Monday to do that, and not Friday afternoon?
Ms WEBSTER – The advice on Friday was from the ACCC and then we were following all those instructions. When we realised this was going to be a wider, whole-of-agency response needed after the advice from WorkSafe, we then stood the incident management team up.
Mr BAYLEY – You didn’t think on the basis of –
CHAIR – Mr Bayley, you’ve had your allotted questions. Prof Razay.
Mr BAYLEY – Minister, I want to take you back to the email of Friday 14 November 10.46 a.m.. I completely accept your commitment to safety of your workforce and that you are a duty holder here. I want to ask though, given asbestos is such a serious issue and I think implicitly we all know it needs to be handled by professionals, why was instruction sent out to staff in schools to handle this themselves, to deal with it themselves, in terms of those three steps I read out earlier: stop using the products; place the sand in in a heavy‑duty plastic bag and double tape it; do not dispose of the product in in general waste. Why was that the case? I completely accept stop using the products immediately. But then you instruct staff to actually take things into their own hands, potentially placing them at some risk.
Ms PALMER – So again, I will remind you: very low risk, and it’s important that we do keep reiterating that it is a low-risk situation. What I will say is that the information that we sent out to schools was in line with the advice from the ACCC, and probably important to also note that that was the same advice that was going to the community from the ACCC, because this wasn’t just a product that was in schools; this was a product that could have been in the home of anyone, anywhere in Tasmania. That was the advice going to the community, it was the advice that we made sure was going directly into our schools.
Mr BAYLEY – I accept that the ACCC, on 12 November, so two days before you sent this email, absolutely did say to stop, bag and double tape these products; they also said, though, that when in doing so in an abundance of caution, customers should take precautions such as wearing disposable gloves and a mask.
The WorkSafe advice, which was last updated on 14 November, so the same day this email was sent, I don’t know whether it was before the email or after the email, actually has as step two – you’ve got number one, stop using the product. As step two WorkSafe says wear protective gear, disposable gloves, P2-related mask, protective eyewear, step three double bag it, and that’s where you go to. Why weren’t staff advised to wear PPE when it comes to handling this product? That’s kind of rule 101 when it comes to dealing with asbestos, isn’t it? Yet you’ve told them to stop using it, put it in a heavy double plastic bag and double tape it and then don’t dispose of it. Where was the duty of care to staff to protect themselves from this product?
Ms PALMER – Again, I will continue to reiterate that this is a low-risk assessment –
Mr BAYLEY – The advice does say wear PPE.
Ms PALMER – I will tell you that we sent out that email, I don’t have the exact time, but I think you referred to –
Mr BAYLEY – 10.46?
Ms PALMER – 10.46. The advice you’re talking about from WorkSafe, we didn’t have that advice at that stage.
Mr BAYLEY – But you referred to the ACCC.
Ms PALMER – That advice came –
Mr BAYLEY – You referred to the ACCC advice from 12 November two days before, which says:
Stop, bag, double tape. When doing so, in abundance of caution, customers should take precautions such as wearing disposable gloves and a mask.
Ms PALMER – I’m advised that the information the department sent out was in line with the advice from the ACCC. Advice that came through from WorkSafe Tasmania came through much later in the day. I don’t know if there’s any detail, the secretary can add to that answer.
Mr BAYLEY – I draw you to the attention of the ACCC website, which does refer to PPE.
Ms WEBSTER – The email had the ACCC advice attached to it as well, Mr Bayley.
Mr BAYLEY – With respect, you’ve given staff instructions: no. one, stop; no. two deal with the product, place it in a heavy-duty plastic bag. The advice that I see here basically says stop, protect yourself and then deal with the product. What happened to the ‘protect yourself’ element to these instructions?
Ms PALMER – Yes, and as I said, the email was sent to staff at 10.46, the recall advice was also attached to that. The other thing that I would like to add was that the advice from WorkSafe came out at 4.59 on Friday, after we’d sent that.
Mr BAYLEY – But the minister, with respect, was referring to the ACCC advice, 12 November.
CHAIR – Mr Bayley. Next round, Prof Razay.
Mr BAYLEY – Minister, I acknowledge the advice is that the risk was low in relation to this coloured sand incident. As it stands today, we’ve got 40 schools closed. We’ve got extra expert consultants engaged and licenced assessors and we’ve just heard the emergency operations group is to be stood up at 12.15 p.m. It has escalated, and it is a significant and serious issue.
I want to go back to the e-mail. I guess your responsibility to keep staff including those education facility attendants and ask again around why they weren’t advised around using respirators and protective gear? You know you mentioned the ACCC advice and on 12 November in relation to this incident it advised that when doing so in an abundance of caution customers should take precautions such as wearing disposable gloves and a mask. If you click through to the ACCC advice on dealing with asbestos more generally, it’s really clear as well. It’s just a standard page, so I assume it was there on 14 November, and it says stop using it. If it’s still packaged, put it in a bag. Clean up sites and wear gloves, masks and disposable coveralls.
I guess again, given the department was sending out explicit instructions to departmental staff to deal with this issue themselves as opposed to the department engaging a professional.
What happened to the advice around protecting themselves when handling this product?
Ms PALMER – Thank you very much for the question and for the line of questioning. I do appreciate you reiterating this is a low risk. We don’t want people feeling frightened and we don’t want them feeling scared. It might have been Mr Willie – perhaps it was you – who mentioned we hear the word ‘asbestos’, and it immediately brings up certain feelings and can be quite frightening.
Mr BAYLEY – As it should.
Ms PALMER – To be clear, all the advice that’s come to us is that this is low risk. I’m going to keep saying that because it’s important that we don’t have people being unnecessarily scared in this space.
With regard to the letter that the department sent, it was based on the ACCC advice. It was from the secretary. I will ask the secretary to respond.
Ms WEBSTER – Through you, minister. Just to confirm, it was from our Work Health and Safety area; that’s where we would normally do that. My understanding is that the ACCC advice at the recall notice at 9.33 didn’t include the specific information about PPE. I would have to take that on notice around the particular timing of all of that. But that’s my understanding and I have seen that recall notice and that particular notice that we used to inform that message at 10.46 didn’t include that particular PPE, but there were links to the other information on their website.
Mr BAYLEY – I can’t talk to whether it was. I take it at face value of course that that was the case. But you click through to their information around disposal advice, and it is there, I think almost by default. We as people now know that if you are dealing with asbestos, you either need to get a professional to deal with it or make sure you are adequately protected. I do still question as to why that advice wasn’t provided to staff.
Do you know how many staff responded to this instruction and actually took matters into their hands as suggested and dealt with this incident in their schools? How many people were involved directly with this product, and do you know how many of them researched individually or inherently knew they needed to protect themselves when dealing with this product and wore PPE? And how many didn’t?
CHAIR – Through the minister, please, Mr Bayley.
Ms PALMER – Thank you, Mr Bayley. I’ll seek some advice as to that level of detail and what we may or may not have here at the table.
We don’t have that level of detail with us at the moment and the secretary has advised me it would take quite a considerable effort to get that level of detail. Our focus at the moment is following the expert advice that we’ve got and ensuring that we’re communicating with our schools, our principals, our families, and following all the advice that we are aware of, but I don’t know that we could get you that level of detail.
Mr BAYLEY – I appreciate that; do you know whether education –
CHAIR – Sorry, time to move on. Prof Razay?
Mr BAYLEY – Minister, I want to put on the record that we think it’s very welcome the action you’re taking today in relation to schools and the coloured sand issue that closing schools, getting experts engaged, standing up the emergency operations group is very welcome and appropriate irrespective of the advice around the low risk.
With respect, I want to note that Friday’s action was lacklustre and incomplete. I now have the ACCC’s actual recall notice from the day before your staff sent that e-mail, 13 November, under what consumers should do. It is virtually word for word for what you have advised, or your department has advised, principals about what you should do if you have these products. It’s virtually word for word except that for point 2 where your advice was to place the sand in a heavy duty plastic bag and double tape it securely and keep it out of reach of children.
The 13 November advice from the ACCC, No 2 was wear disposable gloves and a mask and place the sand in a heavy duty plastic bag and double tape it securely to keep it out of reach of children. So what was missing from your advice? Your advice that the ACCC had was wear disposable gloves and a mask.
I want to ask whether there was a deliberate decision not to include this advice in the notification to principals, noting your belief and your advice that this was low risk. Obviously, the notion of staff wearing PPE, would increase the alarm levels. I acknowledge that.
I want to ask whether given the advice that you’ve put out is virtually word for word to the ACCCs, aside from the PPE element, was there a deliberate decision not to include that so as to, I guess, minimise levels of alarm within the school communities?
Ms PALMER – I’m going to have to ask for clarification of what you’re reading from because I’ve got the Product Safety recall which point 2 is – I think what we’ve been looking at is different. I might have to pass to the secretary.
Mr BAYLEY – Just for clarity, I’m looking at an ACCC recall notice published on 13 November that’s talking about Kadink decorative sand 10 gram 6 pack.
Ms WEBSTER – Through you, minister. There were two recall advertisements. One was for that particular sand product, and the other one was for the other educational colours, rainbow sand and a couple of others and a smaller amount of the Kidink sand. They have two different pieces of advice around wearing disposable gloves. One says quite clearly what consumers should do and it doesn’t talk about PPE, and the other one does. I can’t explain why we’ve lifted one and not the other, but I think that is what has simply happened, Mr Bayley. Those two product recalls were both attached to that email.
Mr BAYLEY – Right, but would you not have seen – if they were both attached, wouldn’t the precautionary principle apply and you would lean in with the heaviest and most precautionary advice possible to your staff, given the duty of care and given the significance of asbestos‑related issues, and I guess the common knowledge, really, to be honest, that we do need to protect ourselves, particularly with a mask if we’re dealing with these kind of products?
Ms WEBSTER – I can’t answer why that happened, Mr Bayley.
Mr BAYLEY – Minister, do you acknowledge that it would be a mistake to have sent out that kind of advice to staff, instructing them to deal with an asbestos product – which is a dangerous product, irrespective of the low‑risk advice – without advising them to wear PPE?
Ms PALMER – We certainly sent out the information in the email that reiterated exactly the steps that the ACCC recommended with regard to the education rainbow sand. We attached both of the recall advice notifications to that email. In hindsight, yes, I would have preferred that stronger language that referred to wearing gloves and a mask, but we certainly –
Mr BAYLEY – So, it was a mistake not to acknowledge that in the email?
CHAIR – Mr Bayley, let the minister finish please.
Ms PALMER – I’ll refer to the secretary.
Ms WEBSTER – Mr Bayley, I think that’s correct. It’s a mistake, and we would absolutely – looking at that in hindsight, that is my responsibility as secretary of the department. That information came out from the department. We were working on advice that we had at the time. We were trying to push the information out, no doubt quickly, to staff – but absolutely take on board what you’re saying.
Mr BAYLEY – Has there been subsequent emails to principals?
CHAIR – Sorry, Mr Bayley, you’ve had your questions. Next round, please.
