Dr WOODRUFF - Minister, section 7 of the GBE Act has an objective to achieve a sustainable commercial rate of return that maximises value for the state. It also says to have regard to the economic and social objectives of the state. Calculated from Forestry Tasmania's annual reports between 2017-18 and 2021-22, total government funding to FT amounted to $77.4 million but Forestry Tasmania dividends to government were only $20.1 million. Do you consider a net subsidy of $57.3 million from taxpayers over a five-year period to be maximising value for the state?
Mr ELLIS - STT has delivered a profit for six years in a row and it's really important to remember that a key part of the work we've done since coming to government has been about putting STT on a sustainable financial footing as well as a sustainable ecological footing -
Dr WOODRUFF - Can you explain how when there's $57 million that's coming out you're calling it a profit? We put the money in there so it's not a profit, right?
Mr ELLIS - They have returned six profits in a row. STT provides important services -
Dr WOODRUFF - But it's all been plantation, not native forests.
Mr ELLIS - to the state as well. For example, STT is one of our three major firefighting agencies along with the Tasmania Fire Service and Parks and the state provides $2 million as part of that important work.
Dr WOODRUFF - More money.
Mr ELLIS - They're a key part of our fuel reduction program. I see a heck of a lot more STT firefighters out there than I do members of the Greens, so I think frankly they should be thanked for their important work.
Dr WOODRUFF - That's actually offensive and on behalf of members of the Tasmanian Greens, who live all across Tasmania and who are actively involved as volunteer firefighters in so many other ways in rural communities, I want you to take that back. That is an offensive comment.
Mr ELLIS - As I say, STT is one of our key firefighting agencies, so we think that it's -
Dr WOODRUFF - Chair, could you please draw the minister to the fact that I find his comment offensive and I want him to withdraw it.
Mr ELLIS - I'm happy to withdraw. STT is a key part of our firefighting. It's a key part of our fuel reduction. It's also key in terms of managing our forests for multiple uses. That could be, for example, in terms of the way that STT provides road access for tourism operators that don't necessarily have road access creation and maintenance capability. It could also be, for example, in beekeeping and I know there are a lot of passionate beekeepers in your electorate and mine, Dr Woodruff, and STT provides important road access for that industry. There's a range of different parts of Tasmanian life that STT's capability facilitates and our community service obligation payments are an important part of that. I might pass over to STT if there's anything further.
Dr WOODRUFF - Thank you, but I don't actually -
Mr ELLIS - No, I think it's really important, because -
Dr WOODRUFF - It's my job to ask the questions, Chair, and I was asking a policy question of the Liberal Government minister. I would like the question to be -
CHAIR - Dr Woodruff, order.
Dr WOODRUFF - to the minister, Chair. I'm asking the question to the minister.
CHAIR - And the minister has -
Dr WOODRUFF - It is about a Liberal Government policy position question. I've had it answered and I think Tasmanians will understand that the minister doesn't have a problem with the fact that we've been subsidising Forestry Tasmania, when in 2015 they said they were ending subsidies. That was the point I was going to make.
Mr ELLIS - They're provided a community service obligation payment for providing community services.
Dr WOODRUFF - Yes, but there's still that money going in.
Mr ELLIS - I think that's well understood by everyone except for the Greens. They delivered six profits in a row and there are whole industries that rely on -
Dr WOODRUFF - You disagree with the $77 million that's gone in over that five-year period?
Mr ELLIS - Look, I completely disagree, Dr Woodruff, with your categorisation.
Dr WOODRUFF - It's in your annual report.
Mr ELLIS - STT has cleared six profits in a row and receives a community service payment for firefighting and fuel reduction and making sure we have a beekeeping industry. The fact that we have an opportunity to talk about that in this forum is important for Tasmanians who are watching and maybe don't necessarily have a huge understanding of why native forestry is important, because it enables so much in this state when it comes to managing the bush, and for those states that are making the catastrophic decision to end native forestry with all of that capability and all of that firefighting capability in Victoria that is being shut down at the moment -
Dr WOODRUFF - Minister, Forestry Tasmania got $30 million -
CHAIR - Order. Interjections will cease, Dr Woodruff. Let the minister finish.
Mr ELLIS - It will be crippling for that state's ability to fight bushfires in one of the most bushfire-prone places on Earth. We're really proud of the face that native forestry is able to deliver so many benefits to the community and community service obligation payments are well understood when it comes to government businesses when they provide services to the community that are over and above their normal commercial operating.
Dr WOODRUFF - Can you explain why in 2014 $30 million was given to Forestry Tasmania from TasNetworks and in 2017 $40 million from the privatisation of plantations?
Mr ELLIS - Sorry, Dr Woodruff, can you just repeat that, because I am trying to answer your question.
Dr WOODRUFF - In 2014, $30 million from TasNetworks, and in 2017, $40 million from plantation privatisations. I don't know how you can say that that's not subsidies that have been going to Forestry Tasmania.
Mr ELLIS - As in selling plantations -
Dr WOODRUFF - Plantation privatisation, that's right.
Members interjecting.
Mr ELLIS - What? I'm sorry, Dr Woodruff, but I think you're having a clanger here.
Dr WOODRUFF - It also happened when $103 million of superannuation liabilities were taken off Forestry Tasmania's books.
Mr ELLIS - Obviously it was 10 years ago, regarding the TasNetworks thing. I'm happy to take that on notice and get some further information, unless there's information at the table that's to hand, but if that's all that you're worried about this year then I think we're doing pretty well.
Dr WOODRUFF - My actual concern now is about your offence to Tasmanian Aboriginal people. You've got a history of offending Aboriginal Tasmanian people and you've got a history of offending Tasmanian Aboriginal people by comparing building items to Aboriginal artefacts, and also as Police minister when you encouraged the illegal damage of Aboriginal heritage in takayna.
Mr ELLIS - Excuse me? Chair, look -
Dr WOODRUFF - Can you immediately apologise -
Mr ELLIS - Chair, I do actually take personal offence to that, Dr Woodruff.
Dr WOODRUFF - Which bit?
Mr ELLIS - Both, and you're clearly misinformed.
Dr WOODRUFF - So this bit of you being insensitive in your Facebook post? I can go into it now. You have a history of that -
Mr ELLIS - This is a GBE hearing, Dr Woodruff, but I'm very happy to provide some further information to you on that.
Dr WOODRUFF - Let me finish my question. Will you immediately apologise for comparing napalm logging burns with traditional Aboriginal burning?
Mr ELLIS - Dr Woodruff, I'm happy to provide you with some further information about your erroneous remarks from those two matters, and -
Dr WOODRUFF - I can table the media articles about your offence.
Mr ELLIS - I'm more than happy to table the Facebook posts as well, or provide them to you later but -
Dr WOODRUFF - Will you apologise to Tasmanian Aboriginal people? That was an insensitive and offensive comment.
Mr ELLIS - It's important for people to note that fire is a key part of managing the landscape in Tasmania. I think it was a David Attenborough documentary called Children of Fire that was actually about eucalypt trees, because fire is absolutely essential when it comes to the way that we manage this landscape. The buttongrass plains that we have come from the way that we manage the land -
Dr WOODRUFF - It's a gross and disrespectful misuse of the relationship of Aboriginal people with their land over 50 000 years in Tasmania to compare that with napalm burning.
CHAIR - Order.
Mr ELLIS - I'm sorry, Dr Woodruff, you don't seem to understand. Active landscape management through fire in eucalypt forests and others across Tasmania is a key part of the way that we manage forests now, and has been for tens of thousands of years.
Dr WOODRUFF - Through the Chair to Mr Whiteley, how much would the company have to pay to terminate all of its existing contracts?
Mr WHITELEY - We are not contemplating terminating our existing contracts.
Dr WOODRUFF - No, but that is not the question. How much would you have to pay? What would they be worth?
Mr WHITELEY - We are not contemplating that.
Dr WOODRUFF - No, but could you give me an estimate, or I could take it on notice.
Mr WHITELEY - We are not contemplating that so -
Mr ELLIS - It is an absurd hypothetical, Dr Woodruff.
Dr WOODRUFF - Okay, what is the value of the existing contracts?
Mr WHITELEY -The value is to the customers and to us. Clearly, as a forest grower, we rely on our customers. We need them to value add, they are important to Tasmania. They rely on us as well as other private growers, farmers, to conduct their business, so, the value of the supply chain of growers, harvesting contractors, transport contractors, ultimately processors, feeding into the economy around timber is clearly very important.
We hold contracts for a period. We have no intention of not honouring those contracts.
Dr WOODRUFF - In terms of native forest logging, obviously, the writing is on the wall for the company, as an industry, it is a question of time. Are you doing any forward planning to look at how much it is going to cost to get out of native forest logging and to have a full conversion to plantations?
Mr WHITELEY - I think it is a ridiculous proposition. The minister started this meeting by saying there has been a planned growing of plantation timber while maintaining the industry for a period with a view to then making a different resource available. That is well known, it is well aligned with contracts that have been put in place through various processes for a long time. Many of those were the product of the Tasmanian Forest Agreement, that was an agreed structure by various parties at that time which linked the available resource and the available demand and then was settled by a series of contracts.
That is the structure. We, as per previous questions, monitor resource availability over time and we can confirm the proposition - that was put in place many years ago and then recast during the Tasmanian Forest Agreement - remains what the industry is working towards.
Mr ELLIS - I think, Dr Woodruff as well -
Dr WOODRUFF - Do you have a plan in place for-
Mr ELLIS - and this is a policy question for Government and -
Dr WOODRUFF - no, I am asking the question now of Mr Whiteley. Do you have a plan in place were there a change of government and there was a change of policy to transition, how long it would take to transition and what it would cost the company to transition fully out of native forest logging?
Mr WHITELEY - I think we respond to the parliament. If anything were to emerge that either maintained, increased, or decreased our activity, then we would respond to that at the time.
