Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, Mr Barry’s resignation is a terrible blow to volunteers in TFS. It is a terrible blow for Tasmania given we are coming into an El Niño season, and John Gledhill yesterday, who was our CFO from 1995 to 2009, said the acting situation of a CFO creates instability, and he wouldn’t: ‘…want to be going into this fire season in this situation’.
Do you accept you have created a situation by failing to take onboard the concerns of the CFO that has led to his resignation and has put Tasmania at increased risk this fire season?
Mr ELLIS – Ultimately, we have outstanding people in the Department of Police, Fire, and Emergency Management, particularly the TFS. The Acting Chief Officer, Jeremy Smith, has more than 30 years of fire experience, both here in Tasmania, around the country, and internationally. We have extraordinary and extraordinary capability in this space. Of course, we are currently in June. The fire season is in summer.
Mr O’BYRNE – Does the sun come up in the morning?
CHAIR – Order.
Mr ELLIS – We are looking to make sure we can establish a strong chain of command as part of these reforms as part of these reforms so we have the leadership to take the TFES forward. Providing this capability is vital so that can Tasmania can respond to future fire emergencies. We need to be supporting our people and making sure the leadership have the ability to respond. Currently, our operational leaders do not have a clear, strong chain of command. The Chief Fire Officer currently reports to the State Fire Management Committee, the State Fire Commission, and the Secretary in the case –
Ms O’BYRNE – Point of order, Chair. I believe the minister is misleading the Committee. The Chief Fire Officer sits as a member of those committees; he does not report to. He may provide some operational reports to it, but he does not report to that committee and the minister is actually misleading the committee.
Mr ELLIS – Who is the chair of both of those committees?
CHAIR – Order.
Ms O’BYRNE – You made somebody else the chair on one of them.
CHAIR – If the Committee has concerns about the answer provided by the minister, they can raise it in the Estimates report as a matter of concern. If there is a concern that the minister has mistreated the Committee, the forms of the House apply and it is open to the member to raise it in the House and move a substantive motion.
Dr WOODRUFF – Thank you. Minister, I will continue, since you did not answer that question. Yesterday, we had two senior CFOs, Mike Brown and John Gledhill, who have both led Tasmanian through multiple bushfires supporting Dermot Barry are all recognising what you are proposing to do. You call it a clear chain of command. They call it red tape. You call it improving what you have just said, ‘the significant failings of the TFS’. They call it layers of bureaucracy that are going to affect the capacity of responsiveness of the TFS and the SES, the joint TFS in an emergency situation.
Can you recognise that you, with no experience in leading an extreme fire response, are not respecting or listening to three of Australia’s most senior CFOs?
Mr ELLIS – I have respect for our former fire chiefs, however, in this case –
Dr WOODRUFF – The current one.
Mr ELLIS – Absolutely. But in this case, the long term interests of Tasmania require a strong clear chain of command. It is clear through the governance arrangements we currently have, that they are bureaucratic. The Chief Fire Officer currently reports to the State Fire Management Committee, the State Fire Commission. Neither of the chairs of those organisations are firefighters. They currently also report to the Secretary of the department who is a police officer sitting beside me here, Secretary Adams, and there is no direct line to the minister. What we are looking to do is empower the Commissioner TFES so we have an operational leader that has a direct line to the minister, that has control of the agency and the experts will be in charge.
This is the model that works in other jurisdictions, that works in the military. We need to make sure we are empowering our operational leaders. This is the model that works in Tasmania Police, where the commissioner reports directly to the minister. Having multiple layers of boards and bureaucracies on top of the Chief Fire Officer is what we have currently, those will be removed and the Commissioner TFES will report directly to the minister.
Dr WOODRUFF – Mike Brown, John Gledhill and Dermot Barry call you out on that and they utterly disagree. What you are doing is actively misrepresenting the situation that works. You have just said yourself earlier you have weekly meetings. There is no layers of bureaucracy between you and the head of the TFS or the new TFES, as it will be. There are no layers of bureaucracy. What there will be is a layer of red tape for the head of the TFES to be able to make operational decisions. That is their concern, that is what is on the table. No one is disagreeing and Mike Brown said, it has been nine years they have been waiting for your Government to act on morphing TFS and SES. There is no disagreement about that. The disagreement at the end, the reason that Dermot Barry left – a man with such expertise and commitment to Tasmania – is because you would not listen about this chain of command rubbish. There is no chain of command rubbish. It’s about –
Mr ELLIS – Chair, is there a question here?
CHAIR – Dr Woodruff, can you ask a question please, because of the time limit.
Dr WOODRUFF – They say – and can you respond to their concern – that you are bringing these agencies together and ultimately, it is going to lead to a diminution of resources and decision making by TFES?
Mr ELLIS – Have you read the Blake Report, Dr Woodruff?
Dr WOODRUFF – Yes, I have.
Mr ELLIS – Have you read the Stevens’ Report?
Dr WOODRUFF – Yes, I have.
Mr ELLIS – And you know having read those reports we need a stronger, clearer chain of command. Mike Blake, in his broad report that consulted widely, clearly established the current arrangements are bureaucratic. The State Fire Commission is not headed by a firefighter. It is headed by Mr Allan Garcia.
Ms O’BYRNE – You put Allan Garcia in the role.
CHAIR – Order.
Mr ELLIS – The current arrangements in the State Fire Management Committee is not headed by a firefighter. It is headed by Mr Ian Sauer. We have a completely bureaucratic system currently and that is what Mr Michael Blake and Mr Michael Stevens both found in their broad consultation among stakeholders who are firefighters at volunteer and career level, among local government, among a whole range of emergency management experts.
An example of the failings of the State Fire Commission can clearly be seen in 2016 when we had bushfires raging around this state for months and the State Fire Commission did not meet for the three months that was occurring.
Dr WOODRUFF – Do you understand what has changed since 2016, the operational centre that happens?
CHAIR – Order, Dr Woodruff.
Mr ELLIS – Our operational leaders clearly were disempowered and are disempowered under the current structure. That is what Mike Blake has found in his review. That is what Mike Stevens has found in his review. This is too important to not act, and ultimately the jurisdictions that have had to act have done so after royal commissions. In the case of Black Saturday, where 173 people died because there weren’t adequate structures, there wasn’t clear chains of command and there wasn’t a levy capable of supporting the fire and emergency services in those states.
I am not going to wait and I expect that the Tasmanian parliament when it sees the legislation, they will be supportive of it because it is critical. We have had more than five years. It is time to act and ultimately I don’t think that anyone at this table seriously believes that setting up the smallest department in Australia to isolate the fire service is going to be helpful. The Tasmanian community knows that putting our first responders in silos is not the best way to get a strong emergency –
Dr WOODRUFF – No one is putting them in silos. You are misrepresenting the situation.
CHAIR – Order.
Dr WOODRUFF – Chair, point of order. I think the minister has been answering for more than three minutes, repeating himself.
CHAIR – No, he hasn’t. There is a bit of time to go. It does feel very long but it hasn’t been. I have been watching the clock.
Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, John Gledhill, who was our chief fire officer for 15 years, roundly disputes your assertion that we don’t have a chain of command that’s effective at the moment. He made the point that the chief fire officer doesn’t report to the police commissioner now; that they report to the minister, which is actually what you’ve demonstrated by your comment earlier about weekly meetings with the CFO.
Adding bureaucracy into an agency that has operational responses is dangerous. You are asserting that the CFO will not be reporting to the Commissioner of Police, but on the TFS reform website it says ‘the Commissioner of Fire and Emergency Services will report to the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services’. Can you clarify that the CFO will report to the Commissioner of Police, Fire and Emergency Services?
Mr ELLIS – There is no such thing as the Commissioner of Police, Fire and Emergency Services, but if it assists the committee, I might table the current structure and the proposed structure for the future, so that it is clear for all members.
Dr WOODRUFF – Well, is it true, minister?
Mr ELLIS – There is no Commissioner for Police, Fire and Emergency Management either but ultimately –
Dr WOODRUFF – That is what it says on your Reform website.
Mr ELLIS – Well, there is no such thing.
Dr WOODRUFF – That is what you are telling Tasmanians.
CHAIR – Order, Dr Woodruff, let the minister answer.
Mr ELLIS – If we need to update I am more than happy have a look at what is on the website. There is a secretary of the Department of Police, Fire and Emergency Management who is currently a Commissioner of Police and there is not currently a commissioner of TFES. There is a Chief Fire Officer. As you can see in the document we have provided for you, a Chief Fire Officer reports to the State Fire Management Council and the State Fire Commission. It is extraordinarily important, as you identified, that we need to remove bureaucratic layers.
If you can identify, in the new model, what about it makes it more bureaucratic than the current structure, be my guest.
Dr WOODRUFF – The problem is, and three chief fire officers of Tasmania have pointed out, that we are creating two departments that are meant to be ostensibly equal, yet the Chief of Fire and Emergency Services, the commissioner, will report to the secretary who is the Commissioner of Police. There is no equality in that relationship if one of them is reporting to the other.
This might sound like a small thing to people who are listening, but the fact is, that has an operational impact. We have three CFOs who are calling this for what it is. It is the likelihood of a reduction in resources and operational decision-making by CFOs.
Mr ELLIS – No, I completely reject that.
Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, this is a critical issue and we have a stalemate. What are you going to do to resolve it?
Mr ELLIS – We are going to move forward with these reforms because they are extraordinarily important. They have broad support. The reforms that we announced in January are the reforms that we are going to deliver.
With regard to clearing up a number of misconceptions in your question or statement previously, currently the Chief Fire Officer reports to the State Fire Management Council, the State Fire Commission and also the secretary of the Department of Police, Fire and Emergency Management, to my left here, Donna Adams. That is the current arrangement.
The new arrangement will empower the Chief Officer role to be a Commissioner TFES. In relation to reporting directly to the minister, the Commissioner of TFES will have power over day-to-day operations as they currently do, but also budget and finance particularly around the ring-fenced funding, workforce and employment, strategy and policy. That will be a significant empowering of that role. It will give the Commissioner TFES the capability to act. In the future, the secretary role will be a light-touch role because we will have two empowered commissioners who will report directly to the minister on their areas of responsibility.
Under the State Service framework, we have in Tasmania, we need a secretary of a department that will administer compliance requirements that we have under the State Service Act and the Financial Management Act, which we all need to comply with. However, we envisage that the Commissioner TFES, as does the Commissioner of Police currently, will have strong powers over those matters. Ultimately, future secretaries will continue to be the best person for the job but there will be a greater capability for the Fire and Emergency Services to take on that role.
Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, we have a situation where our very well regarded and respected leader of the Tasmanian Fire Service, has resigned less than two years into a five-year appointment. We have also had resignations from the deputy chief fire officer only two months ago, the departure of the executive director of strategy and support. The only permanent member of the TFS executive is Mick Lowe, the Executive Director of SES and Volunteers, and I understand he is new to that role, last year. Minister, isn’t this a comprehensive vote of no confidence in your leadership?
Mr ELLIS – I want to acknowledge more than 80 years of combined experience for Mr Bight and Mr Barry, obviously they have had significant long-term careers within fire and emergency management. Mr Bight had 46 years’ experience, if I’m right.
The other thing to remember as the transition to new leadership and a new generation of fire leadership and SES leadership in Tasmania, is we also have outstanding experience. As mentioned, Jeremy Smith has a wealth of knowledge and experience over his 36 years, including as State Flood Controller –
Dr WOODRUFF – Point of order, Mr Chair. I fully accept there are people who are operating in those roles now with a great deal of experience. I am talking about the people who have left and the fact it has all happened together. I asked isn’t that a comprehensive vote of no confidence in your leadership as minister?
Mr ELLIS – I mentioned, Mr Bight had 46 years’ experience in fire and emergency services. That is an outstanding career over a long period of time and we are grateful for his service.
This is a new opportunity to refresh and renew fire and emergency services in Tasmania. These reforms to TFES will help us deliver the leadership we need to take fire and emergency services forward in Tasmania.
Mick Lowe, who you mentioned before, Executive Director SES in Volunteers, has been a multiple combat tour veteran, leading complex operations in dynamic and uncertain environments across six operational tours of duty, including three tours of Afghanistan. Mick’s most recent employment saw him responsible for contingency and crisis planning within the US led multinational headquarters responsible in Iraq and Syria. Mick’s detailed understanding of the national State Emergency Management Frameworks, having led Australia’s national military counter terrorism and hostage recovery –
Dr WOODRUFF – Point of order, Mr Chair. I asked the minister about whether it is a vote of no confidence in his leadership, not for a CV of the people who are operating in the roles at the moment. Can you answer the question?
Mr ELLIS – As I mentioned, we have outstanding experience within the Department of Police, Fire and Emergency Management. The people I am talking about today are the leaders now and into the future and I have great confidence in them.
The secretary of the department, Commissioner Adams, has more than 35 years’ experience, the first female police commissioner in Tasmania and the first female secretary of the department, an outstanding operational leader and an outstanding strategic thinker. She has been Deputy Commissioner of Police for 15 months and Deputy Secretary of the department for six years, recognised with an Australian Police Medal for distinguished service, Tasmanian Police Service Medal for diligent and ethical service, and Commissioner’s Commendation for her work in the aftermath of the 1996 Port Arthur Massacre. We have outstanding people –
Dr WOODRUFF – Chair, I think that is three minutes for the minister. I have another question.
CHAIR – I will pass the question now. Minister, thank you.
Dr WOODRUFF – Chair, that was only one question to be fair. I have been waiting quite patiently. I have only asked one question and if I could ask another on the back of that? You tried multiple times, minister, to mischaracterise the resignation of Mr Barry as self interest –
Mr ELLIS – I reject that.
Dr WOODRUFF – Yes, you have. You said he wanted to be the secretary of an isolated department as though it was something he did not get what he wanted, that it is all about power and control to Mr Barry. Whereas, I understand Mr Barry has told senior managers, after the announcement of the TFS and SES merger that he did not want to leave the organisation without the proper governance arrangements in place. He did not want to in charge during a major bushfire that went badly due to poor governance and structure.
Do you accept that the spirit of the reforms which people in TFS and SES have been waiting for has been completely bungled by you and we are looking at a major bushfire season, an El Nino without people in place because of your failures?
Mr ELLIS – I completely reject your assertions there. We have outstanding people in the Department of Police Fire and Emergency Management, particularly the TFS. These reforms will make us stronger together and enable Tasmania to have the response we deserve. Empowering our operational leaders, as you mentioned, is vital if we are to take this service forward. You could not identify how this new structure would be more bureaucratic than the previous structure.
Dr WOODRUFF – Well, three people have who have experience –
CHAIR – Order.
Mr ELLIS – The reason why you are can’t, Dr Woodruff, is because isn’t. Any reading of the structure I have provided in the documents tabled is that the current Chief Fire Officer role reports to two bureaucratic boards. It reports to the Secretary of the Department of Police, Fire and Emergency Management. The new role will report directly to the minister. There will be oversite on administrative compliance requirements through the Secretary but, ultimately, when it comes to response and when it comes preparation in a whole range of matters, operational, day to day and strategic, budget and finance, particularly to ringfence funding arrangements; policy; workforce and employment; that the commissioner of TFES will be empowered to lead that agency as he should be.
I expect that you would have strong support for these reforms if we can demonstrate that it will reduce bureaucracy. That’s exactly what we’re aiming to do, because report after report over more than five years has clearly established that the current arrangements are the bureaucratic arrangements and that new arrangements need to be brought in place that are less bureaucratic so that we’re empowering our operational leaders.
I reject your assertions previously about my characterisation of Mr Barry –
Dr WOODRUFF – They were offensive and you should apologise.
Mr ELLIS – however, that is the advice that I received from Mr Barry. In my judgment –
Ms O’BYRNE – There were no witnesses.
Dr WOODRUFF – On your say-so. No one else heard you say that. No one else heard that conversation.
CHAIR – Dr Woodruff, order.
Mr ELLIS – that is not the best set of reforms for the future of the Tasmanian Fire and Emergency Services. We are stronger together.
Dr WOODRUFF – We stand with our chief fire officers – the one who’s just resigned and the two prior to that, Mike Brown, John Gledhill and Dermot Barry. Together, they are the people we listen to and respect on this matter because you are repeating the conversations where no one else was present.
CHAIR – Order, Dr Woodruff. Can you please ask your question.
Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, you’ve just tabled a document of the new structure. It shows the squiggly line which Dermot Barry was so concerned about going straight from the commissioner of the Tasmanian Fire Service to the secretary who is the police commissioner. It makes a mockery of what you’re trying to say. There are multiple lines still – one to the minister and one to the police commissioner. Your own piece of paper makes clear the things they’re concerned about.
We have a terrible situation where there is not the support from the 5000 volunteers and the 500 paid staff for the changes that are happening. We don’t know what the views of those people are because it’s happened so recently but I can be confident from the things that are in the public domain and reports recently that this is sending ripples of concern among our volunteers.
Minister, will you get off your pedestal and listen to people who have the experience and who understand that they want the reforms that have been proposed but just not the final changes that you’re making to the chain of command which they believe so strongly will be red tape in a fire season. That’s why they’re resisting them?
Mr ELLIS – I meet with our teams in Fire and Emergency Services on a regular basis. Not just leadership but every part of the organisation. On Monday night I was at my own fire brigade at Sassafras for a training session –
Ms O’BYRNE – Yes, they were pleased to see you. They were pretty grumpy with you, weren’t they?
Mr ELLIS – where we’re rolling out the Tasmanian Government radio networks that are part of Department of Police, Fire and Emergency Management. It’s a major investment that we’ve been able to provide, a $763 million project that has been delivered by the department because we have the scale to deliver such things because we are stronger together.
Dr Woodruff, I’d invite you to read to the Committee if you are so inclined from the secretary box in the new structure and what it says about the position of Commissioner of TFES.
Dr WOODRUFF – Just answer the question. I asked you about talking to the volunteers and their serious concerns that the spirit of the reform is not being enacted under you. You need to change what you’re doing. You need to listen to people who have decades of firefighting experience. Decades, at the most senior levels in this state.
Mr ELLIS – Dr Woodruff, if you’re not interested in reading it, I’ll read it:
The Secretary can be either Commissioner of TFES –
Dr WOODRUFF – Chair, that wasn’t the question so I’m happy to move on.
CHAIR – Minister, I will pass on to Mr O’Byrne.
Mr ELLIS – You asked about the squiggly line, Dr Woodruff, so I’m more than happy to explain that next time around.
Dr WOODRUFF – Many of the TFS career and volunteer professionals are deeply worried as we move back into drier weather patterns that TFS is not prepared. There is a deep fear that it will take a major bushfire event to shine a light on the reduction of TFS capability that has occurred, they say, since 2014. They say that the TFS has been marginalised over the last eight years under your Government, stripped of support services and treated as a poor cousin in relation to the police department. They are very concerned that we have to have an independent fire service, which is what Peter Gutwein proposed last year as premier at budget Estimates. Why have you gone back on Peter Gutwein’s promise?
Mr ELLIS – We’re delivering on our commitment. We will retain but reform the State Fire Commission. As I mentioned, because we’re delivering Stronger Together reforms that bring together the Tasmania Fire Service and the SES, the State Fire Commission needs to expand its membership so it will include SES, both leaders and volunteers, and that is important work.
Dr WOODRUFF – No one disagrees with that.
Mr ELLIS – We also, as you mentioned, need to empower our operational leaders to make decisions, so reforming the function of the State Fire and Emergency Services Committee, as it will become known, is vital work as well. It will advise the commission and TFES and support them. They have important representative functions through both volunteer associations, retain volunteer associations, unions, local government, Treasury and others. That is an important function that we continue to maintain but it also requires significant reform to expand the membership and give that group a strong focus.
There have been major upgrades to capability around the TFES. I was at the Southport Fire Station in your electorate, Dr Woodruff, where we have delivered a more than $1 million station for that community; prior to 2014, it was a dilapidated shed. It is now a multibay station, capable of rolling out a 5:1 line tanker, a 4:1 medium tanker, it has personal protective clothing separation to provide protection for our volunteers against the harmful, hazardous, cancer-causing exposures of which firefighters go to on a daily basis when they go to jobs.
It has room for the community to engage with the fire service, it has major upgrades to facilities so that they are more inclusive so that we can cater for our growing female volunteer cohort as well, and as we announced and as we opened the new Southport Fire Station just the other day, a couple of weeks ago, there were three to five members of the community who decided that they were interested in signing up to the Southport Fire Brigade-
Dr WOODRUFF – Point of order, Chair, Standing Order 45, relevance. That has nothing to do with my question about why he has gone back on the promise that Peter Gutwein made last year: what was the decision that you took, what was the reason that you took the decision to go back on the premier’s promise –
Mr ELLIS – So, as I mentioned-
Dr WOODRUFF – Can I finish my question without you interrupting me, please? What was the reason that you made a decision to go back on the promise Peter Gutwein made last year to have an independent TFES?
Mr ELLIS – We are delivering on a commitment that Mr Gutwein made last year to retain the state fire commission. Now it needs reform because we are building a stronger together service that means we need to expand the membership. We cannot have a state fire commission of the TFES that leads off SES and the SES volunteers. That is what the current arrangement does. However, there also needs to provide –
Dr WOODRUFF – You are misrepresenting me, minister, that is misrepresenting me –
CHAIR – Dr Woodruff, please allow the minister to answer the question unless you have a point of order.
Dr WOODRUFF – Well, point of order, I did, in my question, talk about TFES, so do not misrepresent me.
Mr ELLIS – I have no idea what you are talking about there, Dr Woodruff, but ultimately –
Dr WOODRUFF – I have another question then, minister.
Mr ELLIS – Ultimately, as I mentioned, we are retaining but reforming the state fire commission; its membership is currently too limited. It also needs reform in terms of its role. It will advise and support the commission of TFES so that, as you mentioned, our operational leaders are empowered to act, both in terms of a disaster, and also in terms of the preparation for it. As I mentioned previously, in 2016 the state fire commission did not meet for the three months that bushfires raged around our state and smoke –
Mr O’BYRNE – Why do you keep saying that?
Ms O’BYRNE – Why do you say that? Why is that an issue? What does that mean?
Mr O’BYRNE – It is just a rubbish thing to say.
CHAIR – Order. Please allow the minister to finish his answer, thank you.
Mr ELLIS – There is significant reform work that needs to happen in this space, we value the state fire commission, their representative function and their members, but we need to also ensure that we are delivering a modern, contemporary, fit-for-purpose structure. If you look at the policing side of the house, the commissioner reports directly to the minister, there is not a body that sits between the commissioner and the minister. In the case of fire, there is a body that is not led by a fire chief, it is led by a public servant or former public servant. That is a completely different arrangement to what has been recommended through review after review for more than five years, if we are to deliver better services for Tasmania, then we need to reform a strong, clear chain of command for Tasmanian Fire and Emergency Services so that our leaders are empowered to act.
Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, Mike Brown, who was our chief fire officer, and I believe he is sitting here watching us today, was responsible for protecting Tasmanians and keeping them safe during the Dunalley bushfires. He said yesterday on radio that the fire service must be reactive and responsive to control their own arena, but it is made more difficult now. He wants a secretariat – well, he says the secretariat wants to be across and in charge of all aspects of the agency and the current arrangements would make it pretty difficult for us. Why have you not respected the concerns of Mike Brown and also John Gledhill, who spoke yesterday, and will you meet with them both to listen to their concerns directly?
Mr ELLIS – Absolutely, I previously met with Mike Brown, looking forward to meeting with former fire chiefs, as we continue the consultation on this important work, but –
Dr WOODRUFF – When is that happening?
Mr ELLIS – As I have mentioned you offered it and I am happy to accept that this table will work closely with them so we can set up a meeting in short order. Now, your characterisation of what they have said I have to say is a misunderstanding of the arrangements that will be put in place –
Dr WOODRUFF – I am just reading what they said minister –
CHAIR – Order
Dr WOODRUFF – Point of order, I am reading what they said yesterday so you cannot talk about my characterisation of it. You might not like what they said but that is what they said so why don’t you meet with them and hear about it?
Mr ELLIS – Absolutely, I will be taking that up. However, I absolutely reject any assertion that there will be more bureaucracy under the new process. The new process will actually reduce bureaucracy. We know we need to empower our operational leaders to set the direction of the service when it comes to operational response but also strategic preparation. That is what our reform delivers. The state fire commission needs reform. It needs to be retained because it has important representative functions.
If you look at previous efforts the expiry of the fire service finance regulations 2006 the state fire commission receives contributions from insurance companies and various rates are prescribed in regulations made under the act. The regulations expire every 10 years and require remaking –
Dr WOODRUFF – Minister, Dermot Barry is on the public record of not being opposed at all to the move of the TFS and the SES to create the TFES. He supports that and, in fact, he has been trying to encourage that in his time as the commissioner. The concern was about the decision to give the police commissioner, who is also the department secretary, the increased decision-making power over Fire and Emergency Services. That is what has caused him concerns.
He said his role would have been reduced to a deputy police commissioner and the final reforms were different to those that were detailed to him earlier.
Mr ELLIS – The reforms have not been finalised.
CHAIR – Order.
Dr WOODRUFF – Don’t interrupt, please. I do not believe the actual changes as endorsed by you reflect the spirit of the reforms announced or are in the best interests of TFS and TFES. Minister, if these reforms are as important as you say they are to you and your Government, why aren’t you doing everything you can to make the implementation process smooth? Why have you dismissed out of hand the concerns of the hundreds and thousands of volunteers and paid staff? Why haven’t you sat down and listened to those concerns and taken them seriously?
Mr ELLIS – I
