Ms O’CONNOR – Thank you, premier. Does Crown law come under state service employment?
CHAIR – We did Crown law yesterday.
Ms O’CONNOR – No, I understand that, but I need to – but Crown law advises all ministers and agencies. As a broad principal if an agency or a minister needs advice they go to Crown law.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Yes. The entirety of Department of Premier and Cabinet. Incidentally, Chair, I’ve got the Service Tasmania service centre opening hours and a map.
CHAIR – What, a map of how to get there?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Could well be – and the myServiceTas digital account. Highlights et cetera. They’re here for information for members to avail themselves.
CHAIR – Thank you. More paper for us to pass onto our constituents.
Ms O’CONNOR – So premier, I’m following up on a document that has just been tabled to the committee which is relating to legal fees for ministers or members of government. We’ve got here for example legal fees of $68,000 on 17 June this year. Would that be private counsel or legal advice, or would that be a pay for service from Crown law?
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’ll seek some advice on that, Ms O’Connor.
Ms O’CONNOR – There’s another payment here of $67,200 for legal advice to a minister or member of the government.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Chair, I’ll refer to the secretary.
Ms MORGAN-WICKS – So through the premier. That refers to private legal fees but there is involvement in relation to Crown law in relation to the matter, and I can’t comment, obviously, in relation to individual dollar amounts on dates.
Ms O’CONNOR – Okay, thank you. Premier, can you confirm then that the state covers the cost for example of a member of the government who might be subject to an enquiry by the Integrity Commissioner?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Thank you for the question. As members are aware the Integrity Commission operates independently of the political environment. The Integrity Commission Act 2009. I nor any of my ministers of course will be ignoring the public statements of course by the Chief Commissioner of the Integrity Commission, Greg Melick.
Ms O’CONNOR – I think you’ve been handed the wrong brief, with respect, premier. That wasn’t the question. The question was were these legal fees which there’s some connection as we’ve understood to Crown law, but they’re also paid to private lawyers outside of government. Can you confirm that the government is paying the cost of legal representation for members of parliament who are within government who come before the Integrity Commission?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Yes, so I didn’t start off by speaking of these matters and these are matters for the Integrity Commission.
Ms O’CONNOR – No, they’re not. We’re talking about legal bills that are being paid by the taxpayers.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’m not commenting on Integrity Commission matters.
Ms O’CONNOR – I’m not asking you to comment on an Integrity Commission matter. As a matter of principle, is the government funding private legal counsel for members of the government who are subject to an investigation?
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’ll refer you to the commissioner’s statement when he said, ‘That means not airing allegations until a proper assessment and an investigation has been conducted’.
Ms O’CONNOR – I’m not asking about this.
Mr ROCKLIFF – ‘Nor should others speculate whether the commission is undertaking an investigation into a particular person or entity’.
CHAIR – That’s not what’s happening.
Ms O’CONNOR – Well, look premier, I think it not only is a matter of public interest, but it should be something you’re transparent about.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I am transparent which is why I’ve given you the –
Ms O’CONNOR – No. If taxpayers are funding private legal counsel for backbench MPs that’s a matter of public interest. Can you confirm that within this list here are payments for private counsel for government MPs? Because it does say members of government. Not ministers. Ministers and members of government. And someone’s being paid – you know someone’s lawyers got $68,000. Someone else’s lawyer $67,200. Are these being paid? Are these backbench legal fees that are being paid?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well you’re asking me to confirm the existence of Integrity Commission matters.
Ms O’CONNOR – I’m not.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’m not doing that. I’m taking the advice of Mr Melick.
Ms O’CONNOR – As a matter of principle does government fund private legal counsel for government backbenchers should they be a subject of – whether it’s a police investigation or an Integrity Commission investigation?
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’m not commenting on Integrity Commission matters.
Ms O’CONNOR – I’m not asking you to.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well, you are, with respect.
Ms O’CONNOR – I’m asking you to confirm whether or not you’re putting public funds into private legal fees for your backbenchers.
Mr ROCKLIFF – You are, with respect, so I’m not commenting on Integrity Commission matters.
Ms O’CONNOR – Okay, well just moving along.
Ms WEBB – Can I clarify that for you, because I think you can.
Ms O’CONNOR – Okay. Sure.
Ms WEBB – Yesterday we had the Integrity Commission here before us. The Integrity Commission spoke about an investigation that has been lengthy that involves a member of parliament for example, and we’re not in any way speculating on who that might be. They mentioned it at the table.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Yes.
Ms WEBB – And the fact that there are various things that have meant that takes a long time. One of those was legal challenges to them undertaking an investigation because of flaws in the act which your government hasn’t fixed. But that’s another matter to discuss. So, they have mentioned that here in Estimates. They have mentioned the fact that legal challenges are something that protracts investigations, this question, we can make it theoretical. Theoretically, would the government, through public funds, pay for the legal support and legal representation of a government MP involved in an Integrity Commission investigation, being involved, being investigated by the Integrity Commission?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well, I –
Ms WEBB – Would that be publicly funded?
Mr ROCKLIFF – I believe I’ve already stated today that ministers may be subject to legal claims, actions, despite the fact that they are acting in good faith within the scope of their duties. Ministers may be eligible for an indemnity and/or legal assistance in respect of civil proceedings –
Ms O’CONNOR – What about backbenchers?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Arising out of their acts or omissions done in good faith in the course of their office.
Ms O’CONNOR – Backbenchers.
Mr ROCKLIFF – The ability to provide legal assistance and indemnity to ministers is essential to the protection of the Crown’s interests, the fair treatment of its employees and the effective management of the state service.
Ms WEBB – So that’s fine. We are clarifying – yes.
Mr ROCKLIFF – The purchase of legal advice and fees is driven by demand and need for these services each year. I’m not going to talk about –
Ms WEBB – I’m not disputing the –
Mr ROCKLIFF – Yes, but I’m not going to go into any hypotheticals either.
Ms WEBB – No, no. But I’m not disputing that, but that could include –
Ms O’CONNOR – You’re not being honest.
Ms WEBB – That could include –
Mr ROCKLIFF – That’s not true, Cassy.
Ms WEBB – – Integrity Commission investigations then. That could include representation and legal support during Integrity Commission investigations.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’ll refer you to the statement that I’ve just made.
Ms O’CONNOR – What about backbenchers though, which you didn’t answer?
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well –
Ms O’CONNOR – They’re government MPs that your list includes, members of government, so presumably government, that is the taxpayers of Tasmania, are covering the private legal costs of your backbenchers for whatever reason.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well, I –
Ms WEBB – It’s something you should be able to rule out, premier, if it’s not true.
Ms O’CONNOR – Yes.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well –
Ms WEBB – Quite frankly.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’d just put on record in terms of the circumstances, thank you very much –
Ms O’CONNOR – Well, you didn’t answer the question.
Mr ROCKLIFF – – I’ve spoken about public officers as well this morning –
Ms O’CONNOR – You haven’t talked about your backbench.
Mr ROCKLIFF – With respect to these matters. I’m not going to –
Ms O’CONNOR – Be honest.
Mr ROCKLIFF – Speak of Integrity Commission matters –
Ms WEBB – Nobody’s asking you to.
Mr ROCKLIFF – – As spoken about by Mr Melick.
Ms O’CONNOR – I mean, it’s only public money, isn’t it, really?
Ms WEBB – The acting CEO –
Ms O’CONNOR – It’s a really straightforward transparency question. Your list says legal fees related to ministers or members of government. So presumably some of these hefty legal fees paid to private counsel have been paid to help your backbenchers. Would you confirm that? It’s in the list.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’m not going to –
Ms O’CONNOR – You’re not going to confirm the heading of your list?
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’ve tabled the list. The list was accessed through the right to information and I’ve put on record the circumstances.
Ms WEBB – Can the committee request a breakdown of this list in two columns, one relating to ministers, one relating to members of government that aren’t ministers?
Ms O’CONNOR – Good question.
Mr ROCKLIFF – I’ll have to seek advice on that.
Ms WEBB – Can we please seek that document from you please, premier?
CHAIR – Thank you. The premier will take that and –
Mr ROCKLIFF – Well, I’ll have to seek advice on those matters, given the legal circumstances.
